Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: Maryland Birds & Birding Sender: Maryland Birds & Birding From: Steve Huy Subject: Re: Species Measurements in Bird Guides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No yawning by anyone. Don't sweat the measurements. Can you look at a hawk and accurately say it is 19" rather than 24" from anything more than five feet away? Probably not. I don't know anyone who can. Those measurements are just a guideline to assist in ID. If its 5" it is not a peregrine, if 19" then not a swallow. WHen I worked with Scales & Tales I had many people coming to me telling me how small all the birds were. Up close they look a whole lot different. Many people truly believed a red-tailed hawk is four feet tall! (and that's just one of the more conservative over-estimates I've heard) Accuate measurements aren't necessary for birding. Only banders use them and they aren't going by what is in the field guide. The guide authors probably used data from studies or study skins. Most likely the latter, banders tend to not use overall length measurements - only wing, tail or specific body parts. And from what you cite form teh guides, I'd go with Peterson as being more accurate. 19" seems short for an RT. As for the missing pictures, chances are there is not enough difference to make it necessary or no difference at all. That first winter male probably looks just like a second winter male to the casual observer. Just my thoughts. But don't tie yourself into knots - you should be having fun! You probably know a lot more than you realize. Steve ======================================================================= To leave the MDOsprey list, send e-mail to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com with the following message in line 1: signoff mdosprey ======================================================================= =========================================================================