Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:12:29 -0400 Reply-To: Maryland Birds & Birding Sender: Maryland Birds & Birding From: Joe Halloran Subject: Re: Open season on Horseshoe Crabbers & Birders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > makes me ask myself if I want to be associated with other "birders". Birds, > crabs, heck, even trees are important. But not as important as the welfare > of "PEOPLE". In my view the welfare of birds trees etc is quite closely tied to the welfare of people - I'd like to see all the more destructive human activities controlled - from the auto industry and W's energy "policies" to using up horseshoe crabs - fat chance - and your assertion that "people" are more important than anything else in nature is just the rationalization used to justify the complete consumption of everything. Joe Halloran ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Dunne" To: Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [MDOSPREY] Open season on Horseshoe Crabbers & Birders? > I love watching birds. I love being in nature. I even might like to hug a > Horseshoe crab. But I've found that I really don't like most birders, most > "Mother Nature" types, and this recent thread (along with the Feral Cat > thread) are the reasons why. I was pleased to see Maryanne's response, which > points the finger at the real problem with all that's wrong with the man vs. > nature argument. It's people who have so damn much that they sit high in > their ivory towers looking down on humanity, yet forget that they are part > of it, and degrade the lives of fishermen, loggers, and the like, by placing > the welfare of crabs above them. > > And to make such ignorant statements such as: > "People can (and should) do something else for a living than cut down old > growth forest and harvest horseshoe crabs. So they have to be retrained. > Anybody can be retrained. Even me. We do have programs for displaced workers > in this country." > > makes me ask myself if I want to be associated with other "birders". Birds, > crabs, heck, even trees are important. But not as important as the welfare > of "PEOPLE". You know, if all of you tree-huggers (or "crab-huggers") out > there took all the money and time that you put into "saving nature" and put > it into "saving people" (read "Jerry, go volunteer time/money to retrain > that 5th generation fisherman to become a lawyer") then maybe there would be > a raised consciousness about the lesser problems in this world, like saving > horseshoe crabs. Heck, then once he's a lawyer, then he, too (like you) can > afford to spend thousands of dollars on hobbies. Right now, he's just trying > to figure out how to feed his kids. > > tom. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maryanne Dolan" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: [MDOSPREY] Open season on Horseshoe Crabbers & Birders? > > > > My problem with your position, Jerry, is that it places the onus on > certain > > segments of society - in particular those who have limited alternatives in > > making a living. The problem is not limited to horseshoe crabs, or house > > cats, or even feral cats - the problem is all of us and our lifestyle. > And > > I don't think we can pinpoint segments - like fisherman or loggers - and > > say - "You! You're the one causing the problem and you're the one who has > to > > pay the price." It's us, Jerry. We demand those big houses, we have > three > > cars sitting in our driveways - all of them gas guzzlers. We demand cheap, > > energy-burning toys like those jet skis, huge household appliances, a/c, > > etc. Not only do we consider all these things our birthright, but we > insist > > on subsidizing the cost of energy. That is the real problem and until we > > address that underlying problem, we are simply plugging leaks here and > > there. > > Oops.let me grab my soapbox and head for the hills before the brickbats, > > start. :) > > > > maryanne dolan > > Washington DC (and yes, I have a gas guzzler, too!) > > ABTrowbridge@msn.com > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerald & Laura Tarbell" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 10:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [MDOSPREY] Open season on Horseshoe Crabbers & Birders? > > > > > > > I don't think that handing a crabber a copy of a position statement > > will > > > change his mind about anything. The birding community has long taken a > > stand > > > on the harvest of horseshoe crabs ever since we discovered that their > > > breeding season creates a staging area for migrating shorebirds and that > > the > > > numbers of crabs are declining. > > > This is the same old story about people exploiting a resource to > > > depletion and then wondering what happened to it. I call it the 19th > > century > > > mentality. That's when the exploitation of resources became accelerated > to > > a > > > point that we suddenly were faced with conservation issues to save > > anything. > > > The whole notion that got us in this fix was that humans really believed > > > that resources of Planet Earth were infinite and that we didn't have the > > > wherewithal to seriously deplete them. About the time that we looked > > around > > > and noticed a lot of things going extinct we gradually bought into some > > > conservation ideas. However, the last to buy into them are those > directly > > > affected - witness loggers in the northwest. > > > That guy who started this whole thread by telling some birder to get > > out > > > of crab territory would probably tell you (even if he really knows > better) > > > that there has been no decline in the numbers of crabs and if there is, > he > > > would blame the damn birds that come and eat all the eggs every year. No > > > position paper will ever change an attitude like that. DNR knows how > > > everybody (interest groups, like us) feel about the issue and are caught > > in > > > the middle trying to keep us all happy. I wish them luck. > > > My personal position is that there should be no horseshoe crab > harvest > > > whatsoever in any eastern waters until populations have recovered to > their > > > origianl abundance and that anyone caught with one in their possession > > > should face very stiff penalties. But as usual I'm lying out here in the > > > extremes. I doubt if anyone else on this web would dare to state or > agree > > > with such a radical position. How can we consider jailing somebody for > > > possessing a crab? It would be like locking them up for shooting a > spotted > > > owl. Nobody would have the guts to try it. Instead they get a ticket , a > > > scolding from a judge and a little fine. Has anyone ever really done > time > > > for destroying wildlife? > > > > > > Jerry > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > > To leave the MDOsprey list, send e-mail to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com > > > with the following message in line 1: signoff mdosprey > > > ======================================================================= > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > To leave the MDOsprey list, send e-mail to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com > > with the following message in line 1: signoff mdosprey > > ======================================================================= > > > > ======================================================================= > To leave the MDOsprey list, send e-mail to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com > with the following message in line 1: signoff mdosprey > ======================================================================= > ======================================================================= To leave the MDOsprey list, send e-mail to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com with the following message in line 1: signoff mdosprey ======================================================================= =========================================================================