Howdy all! Mike, ID doesn't get too much more difficult (some well known empid questions come to mind). Gail, thanks for your post. I can only add to the confusion on this topic, instead of clarifying the finer ID points. Gail is correct on warmer tones of brown and higher elevation (3500 ft and above). The bill is *supposed* to be "orange"--whatever that means. I have never seen a bill on a Gray-cheeked/Bicknell's that had what I would deem an orange lower mandible. If you look at the article in Birding on the separation of these two species, you'll note that the text and the pictures do not necessarily correspond (aargh). I have seen thrushes of this complex with lower mandible colorartions varying from straw-yellow (May 97-Crane Creek, OH) to dingier, fleshy tones (most I've seen are this color). The birds I saw at the 4000 ft level on Mt Washington this summer left me more quizzical than ever. I think you'll recall my post that these birds had bright, flesh-colored lower mandibles. The color was as if a bit of sunshine actually came through (so bright it gave the illusion of translucency). It was a warmer, cleaner tone of flesh color (maybe a hint of an orangish hue on an otherwise flesh-colored bill). The color was slightly more extensive, too, covering maybe 2/3 of the lower mandible and the tip cleanly dark-tipped. Other thrushes I've seen only cover about 1/2 (caution--this is my experience only). Additionally, these birds were responding to Bicknell's tape songs & calls. Anyone else know of Gray-cheeked responding to Bicknell's tapes? Now. That said, these birds were silent. Even though I was told by reliable birders that Gray-cheeked would not occur at this time (late July) at that elevation in the mountains of New Hampshire, I can't help thinking I couldn't tell for sure. Warmer tones on forehead, shoulder, primaries, and tail were evident. The lower mandible was a bright flesh tone. I'm glad I was patient and waited to hear one call (unfortunately, I never *saw* the one that called, so I can't describe the finer features (provided there really are any). Aargh again. What a quagmire of difficulty! Besides, I have actually seen Gray-cheeked/Bicknell's with warmer tones and similar bill color here in Calvert County (but not calling, so nothing definite) that looked like these birds. But what was I seeing here on Mt Washington? Unfortunately, I'll never know for certain. They were silent. Most birders would probably have called them Bicknell's I think. I was not about to write up documentation and submit a rare bird report of Gray-cheeked either <grin>. Not on sight alone. Thrush sp. The song and call of the Bicknell's Thrush, however, are fortunately fairly distinctive. The sounds of both Bicknell's and Gray-cheeked can be listened to on the _More Birding By Ear_ tapes. The song is thinner and more wiry (like listening to music on AM instead of FM radio--maybe a poor likeness, but it's what I thought about when I first heard it). The call is a nasal Veee-ah, more reminiscent of a Veery's call. Adding to the muddle, Greg Miller Lusby, MD