To all MDOspreyers who know gulls and their (confusing) terminology: I have a question that needs clarification. Lots has been written lately about the Kelp Gull and gulls in general here, and I have been slowly absorbing information little by little. The Montgomery County chapter of MOS even had a gull workshop (which I attended) yesterday at PWRC visitor center, well led by Mike Bowen, and though still confused, I am getting a handle on these birds. However, while reading about the Kelp Gull, folks have been using the term P10 to indicate the location of the "mirror" on the outermost primary feather. The LOS article on KelpXHerring Gulls even states that "the ten primaries ... are numbered backwards from the outermost feather (=#10; contra Grant)..." In looking through both Grant's GULLS A Guide to Identification 2nd ed. and Harrison's SEABIRDS, they number the primaries 1-10 starting with the OUTERMOST feather (not the other way around) which would mean that the "mirror" on the Kelp Gull would be on P1 , not P10. I am confused by this contradiction in terminology. Would someone please help to clarify? Rick Blom, Gene Scarpulla, George Jett?? Lots of gull experts out there. Even so, I did enjoy seeing the Kelp Gull last Saturday, and it was a great introduction to our workshop yesterday. They are certainly a confusing group! Also out at Lake Redington yesterday besides the few species of gulls present(Herring, Ring-billed and Greater Black-backed) we had 21 Common Snipe, many Killdeer and a single Lesser Yellowlegs on the drained lakebed which feeds Lake Redington, as well as 2 Bald Eagles (1 adult, 1 immature) and 2 American Tree Sparrows. Thanks in advance for any help with my question. After yesterdays workshop, I have a renewed appreciation for these birds, and will now start to look at them (even in parking lots) instead of ignoring them! I can't imagine warblers being my favorite group of birds if they went through all the changing plumages as the gulls. Thankfully, they don't! Warblerick@aol.com Rick Sussman Ashton,MD