I have found that I do much better on my own because, while I don't have the advantage of many pairs of eyes finding the birds, I am much more relaxed, find more birds myself, and have an easier time identifying them. When I am around others, I freeze up. On my first out-of-country trip, this was a real problem. My husband (much better birder) was anxious that I see everything (not easy to do in the tropics to start out with) and the more energetically he tried to get me to see every bird, the more I missed. Only after a blow-up did he finally leave me alone. And from that point on, I didn't dip on a single bird. Even found a few before him (want to know what they were?...I'll never let him forget them....!) and even saw one that he dipped on . BOOTED RACKETTAIL!!!!!! For years, I have been meaning to really WORK on my id skills, rather than just "winging it." Life has interfered with those plans. Now, this winter looks very promising - with Thayer's, every field guide, and a library full of books, plus two sets of sound recordings. But, with regard to gulls, I still say its spinach and I still won't eat it. I find that there are some extremely skilled birders who share their knowledge and for them I am grateful, but most are highly competitive and gloat when you make an error. For them, I practice avoidance. I'm out there because I love seeing the birds and if I don't get an ID quickly, or don't nail it down until getting home and consulting the various authorities, well, so be it. That's how I learn. I've also found that my first impression is right 95% of the time, and unless I get unusually good and/or long views (or hear the song), I probably won't ever be able to tease apart the empids, catch every fall warbler in bad light, and so on. Just my .02. Ellen Paul -- Ellen Paul Chevy Chase,MD mailto:epaul@dclink.com